Brian Long on a Spanish entry on the Axis side

May 12, 2025

@Rofflestomper The fact Hitler planned to invade the USSR a year later so 1942 had Spain joined the war shows me how much research this scenario got, so basically nothing his assumptions, basically he seams to think Spain joined and nothing changed yet the consequences for the British are devastating, 2 to 3× longer it takes for transportation of goods, at a time they are short on militery hardware.

Part of the agreement to join was the Canary Island and Morocco to have Germany bases for subs/ u-boats. Franco agreed in 1940, so why he suddenly changed his mind is nonsense, not to mention he literally asked Hitler to help defend them and build navy bun defence on many as part of the agreement.

Not to mention Spain resources, it produced 1.5 million to 2 million tones of iron ore each year of the war.

Wolfram, which was a vital resource for the war effort, would all totally be sold or given to Germany, not half to Germany and the other half to the UK.

Iron ore = more steel

Wolfram = more ammunition/ tungsten/ armour piercing ammunition.

Mercury = pharmaceutical and ammunition detonators, etc.

Spain also produces mercury, copper along with other resources that was traded to both Germany and the allies something that would have help the German's war effort yet apparently it didn't do anything because why no lol!

The whole point of Spain joining was to use trains to transport men and equipment and travel the short distance from Spain to Africa then build up infrastructure to the front with the British who wouldn't be able to hold on, not to mention the link up with Iran and Iraq who were pro axis and got invade by the British and Soviets to secure oil for the British and stop any oil getting sent to Germany.

@brianlong2334 ... did you not watch the video? It was explained that in OTL, British shipping avoided the Mediterranean due to the Italian naval presence and the threat of the Suez being captured.

The British also had a major ally by the end of 1941 that isn't restricted by the Suez being inaccessible... it's the United States lmao. Spain would only contribute with being more coastline for the Germans to have to protect, and they'd be stretched thin if the Allies do invade Italy as well as France later

@milesperhour9256 He didn't explain anything he just assumed that, as mentioned, Spain joined the war, and nothing happened, yet the consequences were massive.

Multiple historians have dug into this and have come to the same conclusion that the UK would have lost Africa, and Germany wouldn't have declared war on the USSR till 1942, its even documented Hitler himself planed to wait 1 year for operation Barbarossa had Spain joined the war.

The time it took for ship's to travel around Africa was 2 to 3x times longer.

The UK was short of equipment and supplies both in terms of products and raw resources/ materials.

The British didn't have many troops, so holding onto North Africa at the time, It would have been impossible had Germany had access to it.

That's what Spain was its direct route to the theatre not a navy running on fumes people talk about Germany and the Japanese having no oil compared that to Italy and you understand what running on fumes really means Germany had to gift Italy oil almost every year to keep up supplies to North Africa.

Try for a moment to imagine how the USA would have landed in Normandy without the UK in the war. That's basically the North African campaign.

Why would Germany need to defend the cost line when the USA isn't in the war for almost a year....

The argument is just silly. The Atlantic wall didn't begin production until mid / late 1942.

An argument can also be made that Hitler would have secured oil in the Middle East/ Allies Iran and Iraq, both pro axis who got invaded by the UK and USSR to secure oil for the UK and stop any getting to Germany.

From there, it would have had the oil to fight the USSR at full capacity.

It might not have gone to war with the USSR or the USA till much later, or it's fighting the USA and the USSR might become a member of the axis at least for a short time / years, something over looked he just assumed like you that Germany just goes to war with both the USSR and USA at the same time yet the time line is not the same, and as mentioned doesn't go with what was actually planned had Spain joined the war again a complete lack of research on the subject.

@brianlong2334 "Multiple historians"? You know that it's the generals that fight wars, not historians, right?

Spain barely had enough resources, being only recovering from a brutal civil war. They could not hold Morocco in an event of an American invasion, and I doubt that Hitler would want to put more troops in Africa in 1942, when Stalingrad was still his fixation. West Africa could crumble as fast as OTL, and I doubt with how poorly equipped Spanish divisions were, that they could even hold Gibraltar.

How the hell would they secure the Middle East? The Soviets invaded Iran with the British OTL, and it would make sense that they'd do it regardless of British involvement. With India, the British could definitely still take Southern Iran. From there, Iraq can be neutralized.

© brianlong2334
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@milesperhour9256 Do they I guess we can throw out everything we know about ww2 because historian's ain't Generals.... hahaha!

But also, what general are you talking about kinda random thing to add with no context..

Never heard about any general who said anything about this subject, or are you talking about this youtuber as a general...? Lol!

Generals get a lot wrong mate, just a heads up, my unit was put with costal defence, just for example, we are some 1,200 km away from the unit we were put with, and at the time the vehicle that were ment to help us get there were also 1,200km away.... it took almost 2 years to get that mess sorted.

Spain's military was about 700k strong in 1941 and got to over 1 million by 1943, basically the size of the British.

The Spanish economy wasn't destroyed, either but damaged, yes, but it was definitely not destroyed, Germany could have indefinitely supported Spain, why only fighting the UK Hitler met with Franco multiple times to discuss him joining the war but each time Franco demanded more and more grain and oil for example was the main factors, Hitler agreed the first two times but the 3rd he ask for to much Hitler left furious and didn't talk to him directly after that as far as I'm aware.

Germany was to mobilise its economy and resources behind the war earlier, then it did to support Spain entry and help build its industry and supply equipment, Germany didn't mobilise its economy and resources behind ww2 till 1944 far to late but I digress.

Sure, it would have helped put Germany closer to more of a war footing, but it was by no means a massive undertaking for the Germans, especially at that time with the stokepile of oil, some 20 million barrels spains required such a small amount not to mention that after the fall of Egypt the grain and oil production there would cover Spain demands even its ridiculous amount in the last meeting Hitler and Franco had, and would have had a significant amout left probably enough to keep the Italian navy functioning and not on fumes, Italy would also be a lot stronger in this time line and like Spain would be used more effectively.

Why is Stalingrad in 1942?

Wow, Germany did both its 1941 push to moscow oparation Barbarossa and the Caucasus push in 1942, all in 1942 that's impressive but I don't think so I like the sentiment but we need to keep things based on reality.

August 1943 we talking or we can just not even try to have a descusion as mentioned Hitler planed to invade the USSR in 1942 had Spain joined at the start of 1941.

Why is the USSR just randomly invading a nations it had no intention of invading, at least not any time soon, no plans, as for as I'm aware, were proposed until the British asked them to help secure oil for the UK and stop a potential ally joint Germany later and opening up a new front for the USSR later.

Not to mention Turkey considered joining the war with the USSR but with Axis all around them they would have had a lot more pressure to do so even as just the back up like a lot of the lesser Axis was for Germany, this is also a massive consideration however if they joined or not is more 50/50.

Why is India invading Iran... is the UK cutting of its own suply for this campaign?

Unlikely Australia and New Zealand were left behind when the Japanese joined the war, basically so Australia jumped ship and has been in the American camp since 1942.

The UK would take 2 to 3x times longer to do anything if it could due to the Mediterranean getting cut off and the fact it needed suply of both equipment and raw resources India would be a basically a defence position not a spring bord as things don't just exsist in a vacuum.

You do understand at this time how small the British and British India army was it was quite small more comparable to Spain, Iran and Iraq wouldn't be in any danger for quite some time not to mention the reinforcement it would get from Germany and other Axis would be great as the oil in the region would be vital as it would have made the Axis in Europe completely self sufficient as a whole not just Germany this would have had massive problems for the allies this is also why the Anglo soviets invasion happened in September 1941.

So do you have any real points, or are we just going to talk in circles?

If you have information on how damaged the spainish were, let me know where to look, but at this time, I've only ever gotten told about it.

No real evidence exists as far as I can see, but research has that effect, you get to know things, it's amazing. Maybe you can do some and get back to me. Best of luck.

@brianlong2334 Since you're not taking the effort of listing out references, I assumed that we're just using common historical knowledge...

Why would Hitler want to delay Barbarossa up to 1942 if Spain joined the Axis? June 1941 was pretty much the perfect time for the Wehrmacht to begin Barbarossa. May '41 even so. I doubt that Hitler didn't know about the Purges and the effect it had on the Red Army.

Operation Uranus STARTED in 1942. NOVEMBER 1942. Y'know, the one that encircled Paulus' army?

The USSR invaded Iran to secure the oil fields and prevent Germany from gathering oil there. The Iranian army was really weak so they were able to occupy Northern Iran while the Brits did the same in the south without much trouble. India has a lot of resources that could allow a British invasion from the east without much trouble. In OTL, Indian forces invaded through occupied Iraq.

Spain does not have any reason to help Iran or Iraq, I don't know why you're mentioning with the two countries.

We have no idea and I'm not knowledgable enough to predict how Spain would've recovered its economy without help from the UK. Germany making another country its pet isn't going to help with its resource situation, especially later in the war when production is basically forced underground.

Remember. Germany had to import grain and raw materials from the USSR in 1940. It was basically on its own since Barbarossa.

"Despite the emphasis on exploiting the agricultural production of Poland and Ukraine and achieving self-sufficiency from domestic production, Germany also imported (or forcibly requisitioned) substantial quantities of food from other countries. In order of the value of their exports from 1939 to 1944, the most important countries exporting food to Germany were (1) southeastern Europe (Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Turkey); (2) Denmark; (3) Italy: (4) France; (5) Netherlands; and (6) Soviet Union (mostly Ukraine).

@milesperhour9256 To gain the oil fields of Iran and Iraq....

You seem to have a big problem differentiating between what happened and what would have happened. Maybe that's why you're having such a hard time.

As I've said Hitler wasn't try to get Spain to join the war for no reason he spent considerable time and effort trying to get Spain to join even with its short comings why is that as I've tried to explain with numbers to help give you an idear of the reality of the situation not blanket terms like Spain economy was destroyed even thought this was not the case.

What purges 1936 to 1938 or the 1940s to 1942 Stalin had a few even why the war was on.

Why would Hitler delay to secure the Mediterranean, allies and most Importantly oil, pretty obvious I would think, why would he start a camping in the Mediterranean to only a few months later start operation Barbarossa, when he was exstreamly worried about a two front war, why all the effort to get Spain to join the war and then just do nothing it doesn't make sense does it.

The British invasion was 2 divisions of iran, the soviets 3 armies.

The Iranians had 9.

The invasion of Iraq was 1 British division vs 4.

As mentioned, the British alone didn't have the strength to take and hold the region till much later, or they would have needed to have moved division out of Africa.

I'll try to give you an example of how you sound.

It's like saying the Japanese invaded the soviets in 1941 like they planned, and even though they knew they could only go to war with either the USSR or the USA not both, it just randomly does Pearl Harbour anyway....

Yet they didn't do that in reality, and new they couldn't, they spoke about it. we have a lot of the documentation of the Japanese government at the time.

For some reference, the Japanese cancelled their planned invasion of the soviet union on the 9th of August 1941and it was for September very close cut thing, (Kantokuen) if you interested but it's a lot of reading a lot of people don't like to do that that's also why sources are for the most part a wast of time you can post 200 sources and the other person claims victory because it's just wrong.... lol!

As mentioned, I've been told Spain was economically weak yet no numbers of this exsist to prove that, sure it was scared but by no means destroyed, it didn't face anything like the USSR did and it survived till the what 1990 yet it's economy was literally in tathers.

Or we can talk about how Germany was so economical weak before ww2 started, yet they can't prove it its just a point they bring up without the data to support it.

So, for example.

Germany in 1933 made 40 billion Reich marks.

In 1938, when it aparintly needed to go to war, it was 110 billion Reich marks, and growing it had spent from 1933 to 1938 39 billion, and was in dept 39 billion Reich marks to basically itself.

Technical Spain never recovered from playing both sides for support in ww2/ straight-up bribes from the UK and resources until Franco died.

As soon as ww2 ended, that's when Spain was actually at breaking point the USA, basically blacklisted them till what the 70s.

I never said Spain was helping Iran and Iraq it would be Germany with some small support from Spain and more, so Italy Spain joining the war, however, would have kicked the British out of the Mediterranean and Egypt so the Axis mainly Germany would have linked up.

The UK didn't help Spain recover it was paying it to stop it joining the Axis, the German's planed to help build it like they had build there's more efficient then the other nations building what it needed and then what it wanted heavy industry for example along with railway transport ect.

This is all really a long reply.

I'm going to have to reply to your other points when I can, so I'll send 1 or 2 more replies later on.

Maybe tomorrow, you don't have to reply till then to any of them if you wish.

But before that, Germany resources problem was only a real concern due to the USA involvement in the war. Let me try and explain.

Germany out produced the USSR in all major raw resources, but two, as far as I'm aware, chrome and oil, the UK was also left in the dust in most categories but I can't remember that of the top of my head, however in many categories the UK/ commonwealth with the USSR was about the same as Germany.

Germany in 1944 had more resources and produced more.

Hence, its best production year was 1944, yet it was getting absolutely decimated by bombing yet produced something ridiculous, like 40% of its ww2 equipment that year.

Germany luckily for us didn't mobilise its economy and resources behind ww2 till 1944 far to late but Hitler was worried about a ww1 loses of support from the public, till mid 1944 most German's lived and ate the same as they did before the war started.

Grain is harder, but we just talk about bread grain not feed grain for live stock even though it was also used for human consumption.

Bread grains Germany produced about 3 million to 4 million every year of the war and a similar number of feed grain.

From France, bread grain to Germany.

1940= 3 million tonnes

1941= 3.7 million tonnes

1942= 4 million

1943= 4.1 million

With a similar number of feed grain.

Taken from the USSR in 1941 5 million tonns.

Germany reserves of breed grain.

1940= 5 million tonnes

1941= 2 million tonnes

1942= 600,000 tonnes

However, 1943 grain reserves were at an all-time high numbers not given, but it would be higher than 1940 5 million tonnes.

The point about Spain's resources was to showcase that it was a net provider of many goods that were critical like wolfram that the UK spent a fortune buying as much of Spain's as it could to stop it going to Germany.

As I mentioned, I'll reply to the rest later.

© brianlong2334
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@milesperhour9256 Franco, after the fall of France, told Mussolini that he would join the war for 100,000 tones of grain annul along with other resource weapons, ect, all relatively small amounts.

The next time they spoke either letter of phone I can't remember/ other members of the government of each side as Mussolini told Hitler who was slow to react as he didn't want to cut up more of France with a nation that came in near the end like Italy/ after France had already surrendered.

Franco asked for 600,000 tones of wheat 600,000 tones of oil and 200,000 tones of coal alone with other resources and requirements like heavy guns on islands and port cities to defend them obviously Hitler agreed to all terms including territories.

Franco didn't instead later claiming he needed all of his resources delivered before he could join, Hitler insisted that only when Franco joined, he would get it all in full without delay he even offered some 600,000 tonnes of extra grain from France at the time so 1940 be delivered / diverted from other buyers such as Switzerland to head straight to Spain.

In a letter in September 1940, Franco demanded the immediate delivery of 400,000 to 700,000 tons of grain and all weapons for spain to fight be delivered without delay along with the rest like oil ect, the divisions and special units Germany was going to used to attack Gibraltar and other forces ect.

Germany, however, responded that it and Italy would, but it needed concrete agreements and no delays.

At the end of 1940/ first month of 1941, Franco asked for over 1 million tons of grain and 800,000 tones of oil.

Later, he asked again for an increase of grain 2.4 million tons....

Spain produced about 1.6 million tons of grain at the time to 2.4, depending on the year. From 1940 to 1945, Spain grain production was only once below 1930s levels and twice above the average 1930 production.

Hiter scraped his plans for the Mediterranean and only spoke to Franco/ the Spanish through Italy after that.

I can't remember the quote exactly but something along the lines of.

Hitler said

We can't delay this crusade any longer without the assurance of Spain/ Franco at this time cannot/ more likely will not join us to kick the British out of the Mediterranean we must continue with the original plan the USSR question.

We at this time cannot guarantee the oil of the Middle East, so we must look to the USSR / the Caucasus region again.

Franco demanded to much every time we meet or talk, the man requests more at every stage of negotiation as if to find a point that would be to much, this man surely isn't this incompetent and does actually know what his nation needs for war / to run, or are his government that incompetent they cannot run a nation surely not.

Germany can not take a chance on such a people if he came to me and said give me 6 months at least we would have a date set in concrete and I would order all required to be sent to Spain immediately.

Hitler also didn't know that the man in Spain he sent as the main diplomat throught ww2 was actually working against him, telling Franco not to join Germany as he was secretly anti Nazi and on the payroll of the British.

The Germans also had a stokepile of 5 million tons of bread grain in 1940 and produced 3 million and got about the same from France, 2 million in 1941 in reserve, and more from local and French production.

Germany also had 5.6 million tons to 6.2 million tonnes of oil or 41 to 46 million barrels of oil, 20 million of that a stokepile.

Germany not going to war in 1941 with the USSR would have also meant that Germany stokepile of both oil and grain increased significantly along with others as we obviously know war uses and cost far more then peace/ an army moving around a lot needs far more then one sitting around not moving much.

Oil alone would have increased by 1.4 million to 2 million tonnes or 10 to 14 million barrels.

Spain's original requirements of oil were about 600,000 or 4.4 million barrels later to 800,000 or 5.8 million barrels, which is surprisingly high as Italy used about 800,000 tonnes or 5.8 million barrels a year in ww2 Germany also had to gift 200,000 to 300,000 tonnes each year to keep the Italian navy functioning at all.

@angelloperez7273 Unlikely Salazar and his government were Facist a different type like they all were, but more similar to Spain then the rest, even if they wanted to they new Franco wanted any reason to annexe the nation, asking Hitler / Germany for support to invade but Hitler declined multiple times.

Not to mention how small the Portuguese were, along with what the British could bring to bear at the time, was very lack lustre it would have been like Norway but wores for the UK but it's unlikely that would have happened, but the British might have pre-emptively Sent in troops like what almost happened in Norway, as Norway was very close to becoming a axis member had the British invasion happened first, so meaning the Portuguese might have joined the Axis or at least forced to once they lost a small amount of the nation seeing the UK couldn't really help them.

Personally, my thoughts are that Salazar would have acted more like Spain, claiming neutrality but supplying resources to both the UK/ allies and Germany/Axis.

@brianlong2334 This is just false, and Im questioning which "historians" argue that the British would have lost the war.

The reason why Germany invaded the USSR was the same reason why the German empire wanted war with Russia in 1914.

The USSR, in it's entirety is a ticking time bomb for germany.

They are ideological enemies and the USSR is superior to Germany in practically every field, they had more tanks, more planes, oil.

Had Germany delayed for even a year it would have given the USSR even more time to build up their economy and means that they'll easily be able to roll over the axis anyways.

The allied lend lease affected 4% of the USSR's stockpiles at the time with the aid mostly coming in trucks for logistics.

The fact is that no matter the "preparation" the axis couldn't have ever defeated the soviets for the same reason they could have never defeated the British.

They simply did not have the trucks or the food to fully supply a ground invasion of the USSR, not to mention the dozens of manpower needed to keep the partisans and rebellions under control along with all the wasted manpower needed to have all those concentration camps running, especially later on the war when the slave labor of said camps soon became extermination.

Spain was also broke as shit and couldn't afford to supply their own troops with enough guns and ammunitions.

© brianlong2334
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@axlr8deathpls294 When you have what 26 divisions out of over 50 empire and still have to defend landmass on the other side of the world, and have to wait for the American stockpile to arrive, lucky it was heading to France but after they fell it was redirect to them that would have been months to wait for it otherwise.

The UK, after the fall of France, lost half of its landbased equipment. It's not looking good, is it...

Germany originally wanted to go to war in the late 1940s or early 1950s, they whent to war due to a combination of factors far earlier than they wanted.

Yes, the USSR built what 130,000 tanks before and during ww2 to the Germans 50,000.

But how many aircraft 150,000+ to Germany 120,000.

What about half-tracks 3,000 to Germany 80,000....

How about navy wait? The Germans built more subs than the rest of the world combined. The USSR was pathetic for its size...

What about trains 100 vs. thousands for the Germans....

Germans was the second most mechanised army in ww2, the soviets even after the lend-lease of over 90% of its railway, and what 40% of its trucks it still used 1 million more horses then Germany....

War making potential in 1938

1st USA 42%

2nd Germany and USSR 14%

By 1940

1st USA 42%

2nd Germany 22%

3rd USSR 16%

4th UK / commonwealth 10% about 3% of that was Canada alone.

5th, the Japanese and Italians at about 2.5 to 3% each.

The USSR only out produced Germany in raw resources in oil and chrome. The Germans out produced the USSR in all other aspects and even out produced the UK and USSR in some categories combined from memory.

Germany had a German population of about 86 to 89 million vs. the soviets 166 to 177, not including its conquered territories, ask the partisans what happened to them after ww2 when many of the nations tried fight the USSR they were crushed, partisans are not as effective as they are made out some quick reaserch would provide that, most partisans didn't come out inforce till the Germans started losing.

600k to 1.2 million red army troops changed sides and fought for Germany in ww2 with 1 to 1.5 million military and civilian either joining up or forced, most of the soviets milatery men who fought for Germany died fighting for Germany only about 60k changed back to the soviets side.

International trade doesn't matter, so Spain being broke international only matters to international markets... So has little influence on what we are talking about, it why Spain ask Germany for good basically Germany give me and we will fight but the demand ls got more and more everytime and Spain keep prolonging it due to the UK straight out bribes to Spanish officials and the Germans main man in Spain was actually with the UK not the Germans.

Edit: The USSR received about 12 to 15% of its ww2 needs from lend-lease.

The UK received 3x that and was considarbly smaller, about 36% to 45% of its ww2 needs.

@brianlong2334 This is completely false wehraboo information.

The USSR by ww2 had the largest submarine fleet in the world, the japanese also had their own impressive submarine fleet.

In what reality are you living in where germany had more than the rest of the world combined? Polish intelligence with the help of the british also cracked german enigma which limited the effectiveness of their submarines.

Half tracks also aren't that much of an advantage? As tanks they require heavy maintenance and thus required even more manpower to use effectively because otherwise they'd break quite quickly compared to other tank variants, said manpower that germany didn't have.

Going by number of divisions is delusional, it was already a miracle that france lost to germany considering they had a larger army and better quality equipment and industry, it would take 10 more miracles for germany to have even had a chance to win.

Oh but sure your "superior" aryan nation can definitely win if x x x happened.......

@axlr8deathpls294 Sorry, you are talking nonsense.

You should probably research better before commenting just a heads up....

The USSR built what 50 subs in ww2 vs. Germany over 1,140...

Germany produced more submarines than the rest of the world combined, with the 3rd most steel afloat/ under the water in ww2, yes more than the Japanese.

A quick estimate Germany about 1.2 million tonnes for its navy.

UK 2 to 2.3

USA 3.4 to 3.6 a lot of bigger ships but less overall compered to the UK.

Japanese about 800k

Half-track were exstreamly efficient in terrain with no roads / dirt, so like 80% of the USSR.... it's why Germany built so many champ heads up.

The average weight was about 8 tonnes or a light tank with some 2,500 of one model being 18 tonnes.

Germany had 18 million men serving in ww2 1 million of that none Germans, but at its peak 1944 11 million, the USSR in the 30s, but at its peak, 11 million, 1945, the USA, 16 million, but at peak 12 million 1945.

Germany had a male population of 22 million between the ages of 11 and 65.

USSR 40 something.

The USA 30 something

Japanese 18 million

Italy about 12 million

The UK about 12 million

France had about 4% of the world's war, making potential in 1940 when it fell to Germany...

So no, it didn't have a better or bigger industry.

Only about half of the French equipment was better, but the French, like the UK, weren't fighting with modern tatics but more similar to ww1.

It's not surprising that the Germans steamrollered them.

I mean, the UK and USA were also considered Aryan nations, but sure... ok if that's what we are going to use, I guess whatever floats ya goat...

The Germans almost cut off the caucuses that's over 90% of soviets oil it would have been a total collapse within a year for the USSR had they taken it or even just cut it off from either side..

But I mean, you do you, champ...

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@brianlong2334 I'm restacking this whole exchange, this is splendid! Goering's 1945 interview also blamed Franco for not choosing the Southern strategy. But are you sure England would have lost Egypt without Gibraltar? That Germany would have been able to supply its troops in Libya sufficiently for them o conquer Egypt? I would see how with both Gibraltar and Suez controlled, shipping in the Mediterranean would have been secured, thus propping up Italy and Spain's petroleum needs - although not sure about the port infrastructure in Syria?

- Adûnâi

Mediterranian and North African Fronts in WW2 © Metallist-99

P.S. While Possible History is a nice channel, it reeks of the anti-German bias. For actually fun history, I could recommend zvallid (WhatifAltHist, Zoomer Historian and Mark Felton are normies).

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